Episode 1: Scott Robson and Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Introduce Less Than Likely
SPEAKERS
Scott Robson and Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Holy shit. Did you notice when we're twins?
Scott Robson
Oh my God our shirts this shirt and like a year I'm not even gonna extend it in the back of my closet. And I was like I believe like to share what are weird and like it's cool enough it's on that is so funny.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
It is hysterical because I actually just found this shirt. I don't even know where it came from I found it. i It was a shirt that I thought was bent. So I kept putting it over on his side of the closet, you know, and he was like, This isn't mine. And I was like, well, it's not mine either. But I really like it. So now I like found it maybe three weeks ago. So
Scott Robson
I love it so much. Love that shirt for you.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Thank you podcast, and I love that shirt for you podcast uniforms.
Intro
Welcome to Less Than Likely: a podcast featuring honest behind the scenes stories of real entrepreneurs. And they're less than likely journeys in creating successful businesses, Kate and Scott chat with founders from all industries and stages in business development to bring you the real, the brave and the messy of building something larger than yourself while being human.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
So!
Scott Robson
You ready? Here we are. This is so great. Kate, welcome to the first episode of less than likely.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Wow. Welcome to you, too. This is very exciting. So this is our very first episode, although we have done some recordings of others before, which means that we know how much good stuff there is to come. I mean...
Scott Robson
We have so much good stuff. Oh man, I'm actually really, really happy that we did it this way. Because we're coming to this episode knowing what we have in our back pockets. And we've got some really, really fabulous guests lined up.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
We really do. It's such a fantastic kickoff what you are all in for it's such a treat, really fantastic guests.
Scott Robson
So excited. So we should talk about why are we here? What is less than likely,
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
you and I wanted to create this podcast because you and I were both having these conversations with entrepreneurial clients. And we really wanted to be able to bring to light their stories, we have the benefit of hearing the stories of real honest behind the scenes experiences of being a founder of deciding to start your own business and what that truly means. And it's been such a benefit to me. I don't know if you feel the same way as a coach to hear everybody's different stories and to see that collective experience.
Scott Robson
Oh my god, completely.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
So, we wanted to bring that to everybody here.
Scott Robson
I feel like we're so lucky because as two business coaches, we get this inside scoop on really what's happening underneath the hood of so many businesses and what you end up hearing are a lot of the same stories. So for me and us since we work with very similar groups of people being able to highlight and bring those stories forward. For folks, I feel like we're sort of letting people in on the inside conversation, which I think is for me, I'm someone who always was a bit nosy. I don't know if you're a nosy person. I always find I'm like, "Oh, what are they talking about? Like, what is the what are they really saying?" I think this is a really nice way of getting some really honest stories. So that's the what, and I'm curious if we can talk about the who, you know, who are we talking to? Because these business owners, they're not business owners, who are necessarily those who saw themselves as stepping into a role of entrepreneurship. And that's something that we really wanted to highlight.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Absolutely. So the less than likely is really speaking to a few things, right? First and foremost, a lot of the people we're going to be talking with never saw themselves in the role of entrepreneur, you and I think both identify as such, a lot of the people that I work with certainly have found themselves as business owners, and they're like, Wait, this isn't what I expected to be doing. I think it's also about those people who are less than likely entrepreneurs, because maybe the ducks were stacked against them a little bit. Or maybe they have had to break through some societal norms in order to claim that role, entrepreneur, and business owner. So less than likely can mean so many different things.
Scott Robson
It really can I think that there's also that element of being able to create that bravery and resilience that is really required and needed to see yourself in a different way and claim that identity. Right? So many of us have great ideas for business. And so so little of us actually move forward with that idea. What I'm hoping is that they inspire some other would be business owners to step into that arena and claim that space for themselves. But then also for the people that are already doing it. They can maybe feel like oh, okay, great. I thought that I was the one that there was only having these problems. I thought I was the one that secretly was like maybe having a little bit of a cry when the door closed. Or maybe I was having a little bit of a freakout. But guess what? You're not alone. You're not alone, right? No. So as people who as you just said ourselves never really saw ourselves going into business. I think that these conversations are so affirming for me personally, and I've gotten so much out of them.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yes, me too. And then we also are really excited about talking with those businesses that might have been less than likely. So what does that mean?
Scott Robson
Yeah, so these are businesses that are doing something different in their industry that are really sticking their claim that, you know, people said, this is not the way that things are done here, maybe they're creating complete new systems to create something that has never existed before, right? Or maybe they're doing, they're putting a spin on something. And in a way, that really means something to them, whatever it is, these are businesses that don't follow the template. And so they're breaking new ground, and they're doing something different ends, they're really sort of staking a new space for themselves.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yes, I'm glad you said that about, you know, staking a claim here, because that's exactly right. You know, I think we all know that this world needs a little work. And it's really exciting to be talking with business owners who are saying, No, I want to do it differently. And that means I'm figuring out a lot of new stuff. I'm disrupting an industry, I'm building the new model, I'm bringing forth a new idea that people think is bananas, that takes again, that bravery and resiliency that you were talking about. And I find an incredibly promising vision for what is to come.
Scott Robson
Definitely. And I can't wait for everybody to hear these really great conversations that we have in store for them.
Intro
Welcome to Less Than Likely: a podcast featuring honest behind the scenes stories of real entrepreneurs. And they're less than likely journeys in creating successful businesses, Kate and Scott chat with founders from all industries and stages in business development to bring you the real, the brave and the messy of building something larger than yourself while being human.
Scott Robson
So let's start off Kate, I would love to talk to you. And maybe we can introduce ourselves a little bit and what we do and where we come from. So Kate, what is it about you? If you can tell everybody that makes you or your business less than likely?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Akash? I know like that's a surprise question.
Scott Robson
I thought that this is going to be a question that we would be talking about. Oh, wait, nevermind.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
I wrote that question. Yeah, he wrote it.
Scott Robson
No, but seriously, they so I've known you for six years now. We did our coach training together. That's how you and I met. And we're both business coaches, and work with entrepreneurs. And I think that one of the things that I've seen in our industry is that they teach you really well to become a coach. But there is not necessarily a huge premium put on the fact that you're also having to wear business person pants if you choose to. Yeah, if you want to, if you're going to be starting your own one on one practice, which not every coach does, but that's the route that you chose to take as well as I Yep, absolutely. How was that for you stepping into that role of being an entrepreneur?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Well, so it happened before I became a coach. You know, I never considered myself to be entrepreneurial. However, this is like complete lack of awareness. Apparently, for the first decades of my life. The first thing I did out of college was started start a company, it was a theatre company, that company is still going strong and Seattle 20 Some years later, aging myself here. So while I never saw myself as entrepreneurial, I absolutely had entrepreneurial roots and impulses. However, the way I found myself here today with you is I was working my dream job. I had a great career in the theater world. I was an administrator, a fundraiser, I helped make the theater happen. I was raising millions and millions and millions of dollars to make theater happen in New York City. It was all well and good. And then I had a baby and thought that I was going to be able to manage everything and did. No I didn't. But I was going to be able to manage it. And very quickly realized that this was just not a tenable arrangement. At the time, I thought it was not a tenable arrangement because of me. And I have come to realize now Oh, no, it's just not tenable. For most parents, mothers, particularly in that industry as well. It's a late night industry, you are working with a very, very tight resources because we were in the nonprofit world. And I was also working on a huge project and there was just no end in sight around the stress and the amount of time and dedication that it would require
Scott Robson
of me. I mean, this goes to speak also about the struggle that so many parents have, particularly women, let's be honest, that have these all consuming jobs. And maybe honestly let me rephrase that because I just think that the system them isn't set up to allow for motherhood in particular. No. And the demands that that require?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
No, you know, it took me years to realize that that's what I mean by, you know, I thought I was the problem. And now I realized, oh, no, we just as a society do not support mothers, we just don't, and particularly new mothers. I mean, I was back at work, and I had generous leave being a few weeks, you know, but I was back at work, eight weeks after giving birth. And I was excited to go back in some ways. Before it all happened, right, I had this whole idea of what it was going to look like. And I had it all planned out, mapped and workflow, and it was going to be awesome. But that didn't account for the sleep deprivation, my baby didn't take a bottle. So I literally fed her all night long. So I was exhausted. And doing very intensive work, we were raising millions of dollars in order to build a theater center in the middle of New York City, at the height of the economic crisis, it was bananas. And so anyway, all of that aside, I was at my limit. And I was trying to figure out how to make this work. And it just came down to what the company needed. And what I was able to give could not mesh. And so I quit, and I quit terrified. But it was such a new beginning in so many ways, because I just drew a line in the sand for myself, like, I'm not willing to put my sanity, my body, my sleep, all of these things on the line. And in that moment, that's when the life that I have right now completely opened up to me, because not long after I gave my notice, I was hired back by that company, as a consultant, I had so much more authority over my own time over my own scope of work over my own everything. And I have the ability of going out and working with other companies as well. And these were companies I got to choose to work with. So my first foray as or my second let's be honest, is as a entrepreneur was as a nonprofit arts management consultant and fundraiser. I did that for a while. And then I decided I wanted to be having different conversations with people. And that's when I started picking up coaching you and I then met at that moment, yeah, I became a coach six years ago, I started my own business over 10 years ago. I've been doing this for a while. But in terms of the less than likely, I just never had a plan to become a business owner ever.
Scott Robson
So I'm really wondering, Was anybody in your family and entrepreneur? Did you see this model for you in in any way growing up? Yes.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
So my mom actually was an entrepreneur. But you know, I grew up in a very traditional household in a lot of ways. My mom is an incredibly talented, smart as how like ready to go Problem Solver Make It Happen person. And she was tasked with raising me and my two sisters. And that was her full time job. And my dad worked full time. And that's how it was supposed to be. I'm putting quotes and using my my male voice. And that's how it was when I was in middle school. My mom started a business and it was a boutique retail shop. And she worked to gather and curate handmade arts and crafts and beautiful pottery and fabric work. And my mother was a gorgeous seamstress is a gorgeous seamstress. She doesn't sell as much these days. But she was an entrepreneur and she hit the ground running and had a very successful business. You know, I think that while I saw that I never saw myself necessarily within that.
Scott Robson
Okay, talk to you about that, actually, because that's actually really interesting. So I come from a similar background. And when I think back to being a child, those conversations were never about opening your own business, right? They always tended to be about being a doctor at a hospital being an architect and a firm being of that, right. But it was never I'm going to be a veterinarian and open my own practice, or at least not for me. It was always about working within someone else's larger structure that can support you. And so I just find it fascinating that your mother was starting her own retail business. And it sounds like a really cute little boutique that I wish was still open.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Oh isn't. Yeah,
Scott Robson
I know. And yet it never really seeped in that this was something that you might do when you got older.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
No Well, I mean I did not get the message that that was viable, right that that was what would be the safe or smart decision or anything like that, just in the same way that I was taught. And it was modeled for me that this is what a traditional heteronormative patriarchal family structure looks like. I was also taught, this is what a career looks like. And that I think, is so much about our generation. I mean, that was what felt safe at that time. These days, we're just an entirely different world. And in fact, you know, we all know that our systems are failing us and hurting us and harming us, including this idea that you have to go down a certain path in order to secure a certain anything future safety, all of these things. It's just not true. I'd love
Scott Robson
to fast forward into starting your coaching business. And stepping into that you started your bigger business with a partner I know. Right? So you had a friend of yours, you and she, we're doing this together. But this is different. This is you doing this on your own? So how did that feel like for you that difference of being more of a solopreneur, in this case, and starting a business of your own in that way?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Oh, that's such a great question. And that actually makes me think, you know, one of the challenges I think I've found, as a coach, you know, not as a coach in terms of the practice of coach, but as a coach, business owner, is that it is very isolating, I'm by myself, whereas theater is entirely built on collaboration, I had something to respond to, and something to work with. And I just really loved and thrived within that collaboration. So when I became a coach, the thing that was the hardest was generating my own ideas and generating my own line of thinking, and what is it I even do, right? So that was definitely a big part of the journey I worked at first with creative people, I know that creative mind so well, having been around it for so long. So that was a big part of my work. And that naturally started to bring together all the different things that I care about one creativity to prosperity as a fundraiser, you know, funding our artists is something that is absolutely essential. And I began to realize that what would be most helpful for the people that I was working with was for them to really claim the role of business owner, as an artist, or whatever you called yourself at that time. And that's actually how I started moving more into working with solopreneurs, which is what I do now?
Scott Robson
Well, I think one of the things that is unique about the coaching industry is in a lot of other industries, when you start a business, there's a bit of a template that is already in place as to what your business is going to look like and who you're going to be working with. And in the coaching industry, there's an inherent flexibility, you know what you're going to be doing, but you have no idea necessarily who you're going to be doing it with. And it's almost presumed that that's going to change at some point in the first few years of your business. Did you see that happening for you in your coaching business when you started
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
100%. But let's be clear, that's not what I was told, right? We've been told that having a business is about building a business plan. He's here my patriarchal force. I'm gonna call it from now on, that's awesome. You have to have a business plan, you know, get your capital together all of these very rigid structures that you have in place. And until you have it, you don't have anything, which is the opposite of what I see happening for the majority of business owners today, particularly solopreneurs. The truth is, is we're just like learning as we go. And when you are the core resource of your business as a solopreneur, then how you feel what you want. What's interesting to you is such a vital bits of data. And so while I didn't realize it at the time, I thought I was failing every single day, quite frankly, I realized that I was gathering this data. And so that was who I work with, what do they need? What am I really good at? While I always knew that I could coach and have those conversations, the other parts of my business like helping people understand their financial projections and helping them understand the structures of their business and helping them understand their overall model and where they want to go and whether or not that makes sense for them and all of the different things and then of course, you and I will talk more about like self doubt and self belief and how that shows up. But all of those things start had to kind of culminate and take shape, I would never have planned this business that I have today, six years ago with a piece of paper and a business executive summary, it just wouldn't happen, it would have looked differently.
Scott Robson
You couldn't have gotten there I, one of the things I think about running a business that I've realized too is, especially as somebody who's a solo, an entrepreneur, or at least at the head of your business, is that there's a inherent flexibility where your business starts to mirror, really your own journey. And as you start changing and shifting and focusing on different things, you realize that your business can become a vessel for that. And so this is where your business starts to reflect not only your values and your passions, but also the impact that you want to be making. And sometimes you just sort of figure it out in the sense of, Oh, me the impact that I want to have, maybe that doesn't change, but the way that you do it changes when you just find those more effective ways of doing that. Yeah.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Well, you know, I mean, it's about really figuring out what works well for you. And that's the journey I had to go through as a business owner, myself, too, is like, what makes sense for me?
Scott Robson
Yeah. And I feel like that is something that every entrepreneur has to go through. And it's and it's more difficult than you would think, how do you work with clients on that? How do you coach them through that,
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
the way that I help people do that now is by helping them learn how to trust themselves, and helping them learn how to trust the signs that their business is giving them, that their emotions are giving them, that their intuition is giving them and that their history, expertise and experience has given them. All of our histories. And our stories have such a role to play in our business and in the work that we do. So a lot of times the work is about really figuring out where we're denying a part of ourselves and saying, Okay, how can I build up a system or structure that can help me support myself a little bit better. So I have i There's no way that I can ever go back to work in a 60 hour week, or even a 40 hour week. So my business needs to fit within the constructs that I have chosen in my life, including my kids, my home, my dog, all of these different things.
Scott Robson
And something that I was really curious about is our clients come to us with specific problems, where obviously they're feeling under resourced themselves to make those changes that they want to make, but they feel like they can't, or maybe they are resistant to how has it shown up for you in your business, right where you know, you've had to make a change. And yet you've resisted making that change.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
I am going through it right now I've gone through it over and over again, in my business, you know, how has it shown up for me holding on to clients for too long, that no longer fit, where I see myself going? Right now I can feel it in my business that things need to shift and change. And the industry, right? We're inundated with online industry coaching industry, there tends to be a bit of a lie that I think is sold to us where it's like, Oh, you just switch it and then you do something new. But right. In fact, it takes an internal like whole team that is that has to happen a bit and slowing down. It's not comfortable when your business is changing. Because again, another lie is that the growth always happens on a progressive scale. But in fact, it's so cyclical. And in fact, it can really have a very roller coaster kind of feel, even when things are going great. I mean, I've had the experience of having one of the best years financially, and it been the hardest, emotionally, right, the most out of alignment for me to use, you know, a completely vague term. But, you know, really not feeling great. That's not sustainable.
Scott Robson
that fascinates me, by the way, right? I mean, as business owners This is I think that this story is something that a lot of people can relate to where you have a gold star banner year and you're kicking us and you're exhausted and you're like, Wait, this is not who I want to actually be working with and is not what I want to be doing and what have I done and now my business has become an albatross around my neck and do I have to do this now and it ends up being another pair of golden handcuffs. Yep. How did you pivot from that circumstance to at least starting to explore what it could look like for you?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
So one of the core changes for me has been always to slow down, which is very, very difficult for me to do. I like to move fast. That's where I I feel safe and good. And like I'm doing something. getting done, totally getting it done. So slowing down has helped me to recognize when I'm recreating what I know, rather than what I really, really want to, you know, we'll talk more I think as time goes on about self belief work, but becoming a self belief coach was a huge part of my journey as well, because that's where I realized, Oh, we can build our businesses in a place of our doubt. So I've really had to pull apart, what decisions have I made around my business and the model? Because that's where I feel safe? And what decisions have I made that really, really speak to me, even though I've never seen it out there before? Or? I might be crazy, but I do, you know, by by trying this? Yeah, that's what's really been helpful to me is to slow everything down and get really frickin honest about why I actually make some of the decisions that I make. I feel like though, Scott, that everybody has heard your excellent interview question.
Scott Robson
I have so many more questions for you. I
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
need to get my questions in, I don't even know what they are. Ask your yourself all these questions. I really
Scott Robson
have enjoyed just sitting with you. Because even though we've known each other for six years, we've never done this type of questioning of each other in this formal way. That's a
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
trait. So let's continue the conversation, because I know that there's a lot that we share. But also there's so much that I don't know. So can you walk us back? Tell me? What is it that makes you or your business less than likely?
Scott Robson
Again? Where did that question come from? I feel so if I told you, again, I think for me, it's a couple of things. My father was an entrepreneur, he had his own business, I grew up in online Island in New York, I live in California now. And he had his business for my whole life, I never knew my dad to work a nine to five. And what's interesting in the parallel between you and I, and I didn't know this until you said it is I also had the same experience of never seeing myself as an entrepreneur, despite him being one. And I think a lot of that had to do with the conversations that we were having in the house, just as far as again, like, what are you going to do and you grew up, and it was never, I'm going to open a store, I'm going to be a coach, you know, I'm gonna start my own practice. Even as a therapist or psychologist, it was always nested within another organization. And looking back, I understand why I see why my parents wanted me to have that safety net of you want a good job, you want a salary, you want a group of people helping to take care of you and making sure that you're financially stable. And it was all in the best intentions. And I don't present it at all. But it just to me highlights the conversations that we're not having with our kids. Yeah. And I think one of the impacts of that is that there's a message that's embedded in that, which is that it's going to be really hard for you to do this on your own. And also not sure if you want to do it on your own, because it's going to be really risky. And you might feel 100% Of course, again, that nuanced conversation isn't really happening. But I think looking back, that is a little bit of the interpretation that I give it. And so for me, I worked in the media and magazine print publishing industry for 20 years in New York City. I ran a creative services department with a lot of other designers. And I always on the marketing side, which was which I absolutely loved. But it was slowly killing me. It had nothing to do with the job itself. Let me just say that I actually really love the people that I worked with. I'm in touch with the but it was not the impact that I wanted to be having in the world. And I remember having a moment of really feeling like almost like having an existential crisis, where I knew that I couldn't do it anymore, but I didn't know where to go. And I didn't want to continue in that industry because the print industry famously has been on really tough times for probably the entire time that I've been in it.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah. 20 years stable.
Scott Robson
It's probably not a good pick for me to stay here and I didn't want to go the agency route. And I remember looking back and I was sitting at my desk Ask and thinking, When was I the happiest? When did I feel that I was actually making a difference. And that crisis really pushed me to remember, I remember when I did this coach training 10 years beforehand that really helped me and all sorts of situations and managing people and navigating crises and difficult conversations. And I thought, You know what, when I was actually working with people in coaching with him, I knew that I was making a difference in there. I wonder if that's something that I could do. And so I just ended up doing some research, looking into all these different coaching schools. And I reached out to a few of them, I ended up having a great conversation with somebody at AIPAC, which is one of the bigger coaching schools out there. And I thought, yeah, I think I can do this. And so what I ended up doing was, we had undergone a lot of rounds of layoffs at the company that I was at, which is sort of par for the course for a lot most print companies and continues to happen. And I was always the last man standing, always every source
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
to let you go. All the way from my advertising job, so I got fired, nobody's gonna let you go.
Scott Robson
I feel like my head could have absolutely been on the chopping block. And it maybe should have been for other people that were let go, because there were some talented people that thought like, oh, but thank you. And I just remember thinking, you know, I think this is the time, this is actually the time to leave. And so I asked the CEO of our company who I was close with, and I said, Hey, let's you know, can you can we go for a walk? She's like, Yeah, let's go for a walk. You can walk me uptown. We were we were in downtown right? North of the World Trade Center site. And she's like, Yeah, walk me up. I'm going, I'm going like, 10 blocks up, you can walk me. And I remember getting down to the lobby, and her saying to me, so this is either going to be a really good conversation, it's going to be a really bad conversation. I said, I don't think it's gonna be a good conversation for you. She was okay. And she knew it because you know it when someone's giving notice. And what ended up happening, which was amazing is that as we're walking up to her meeting, I said, I want to go freelance. And she said, that's great. How about we become one of your first clients? Yes. And immediately, I had a business. Yeah. And I couldn't believe that. And so I ended up starting that freelance design business first, as I was getting my coaching certification through AIPAC. So I ended up I was starting two businesses almost at the same time, but I always knew that the freelance business was temporary, and that the coaching business is where I was heading towards. And so I ended up starting working in my coaching practice and career change. And I think that really just reflected who I was at that time, which is somebody who is changing his career. So I was like, well, this makes sense. So I know something about this person. Like I'm there, I'm only a couple months ahead of you. And so that lasted only a little bit. And then slowly, I realized, Oh, I actually since I've been working in marketing, and working not only with a lot of small businesses, but also huge luxury brands, I actually know quite a bit about marketing. And I know quite a bit about mom and pops and entrepreneurship and what goes into messaging and claiming your space as a small business. And so that's what I ended up drifting into. So that's what I do now, where I work as an entrepreneurial and marketing coach, who I say, works with humans who happen to own businesses, when so for me, my real focus with my clients is always to help them create confidence and being visible in their business. And also in all the really crunchy moments that come here having to lead ourselves and lead others, which those moments of difficulty and discomfort are part and parcel of being a business owner. And it's it's usually the soft underbelly that we don't like to talk about. And so I like being able to create that safe space for clients, we're able to not only talk about it, but actually navigate our way through it.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
I wonder what you're talking about, you know, this thing that we don't discuss, right, that it actually there's a lot of crunchiness that goes into the experience of having a business, and we don't discuss it. And so I'm wondering like, how do you help people navigate that? What happens? What is it that they come? Do they come to you with a sense of like, this is where it's crunchy, what happens with that?
Scott Robson
They I think we do I think one of the prerequisites of the clients that I work with it I've discovered is that there is a self awareness that they have around their experience and seeing not just maybe what they feel like are the limits of what they can do. But then I think that there's also a part of them that that knows that that's not really their limit, because if it was they wouldn't even bother engaging with me. And I think that there is a very wise part of all of my clients that knows this is something about this actually is workable, and I know that I can improve and change and lean into some healthy aspect. Since myself here, but I really don't know how, and I have a lot of blind spots around this, and I don't know why I'm doing the things that I'm doing. Or maybe I just need a little bit of help in understanding the root causes of it. You know, I think that we often start businesses. And we have a persona in mind of the sort of archetypal entrepreneur that we've modeled off of others that we've seen in that role, or even societal ideas of being the good business leader, quote, unquote, doing air quotes as I do that. Yeah. And, you know, and I think that we all have that idea of like, what, what this is supposed to look like. But for me, when I started my business, I tended to think of all the strong qualities of these former CEOs that I worked with, that really inspired me. So in the beginning of my practice, I tended to overwork a lot. And I see that in a lot of the clients that I work with, as well, you know, I was up until one or two in the morning, and then waking up five hours later, you know, I was always available to everyone, others in my field, who wanted to connect and network clients, you know, favors to colleagues, I was always available. And I it's funny, I'm seeing that in a lot of my clients, especially these days. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, I know exactly where you're at. I remember that point where you're always available to all the people. And but what I realized was that this is really, from an energy perspective, a really leaky container that I built for my business.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
So let's run that down. What happens if you stay with that? Because I think that there's a lot of people who could be listening to this and saying, like, Yeah, well, that's what it takes. That's what that's what being a business owner is you run like hell, you bend over backwards, you make it work. But what do you know, or what have you seen is the outcome of that,
Scott Robson
I spent a lot of my time in this over functioning place, and really taking care of everybody else. And I think that I mistook busyness for productiveness
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
are here. The two are not the same,
Scott Robson
they're not the same. And part of that had to do with the fact that I was not familiar with running a business. So I think that when you're a salaried employee, you're not able to really tease apart busyness from getting it done. And you get paid all the same, though. And so the outcome is ultimately the same. And if you have to work late, a couple of nights to meet deadlines, you do that? Yep. So for me, it led to real periods of burnout, and also my business not being financially stable as it could have been. So sure, now, I can see that I'm much more responsible with how I'm using my time. And I realize how valuable that time is, and when I'm working with my clients, especially around this particular issue, them seeing that time is the most valuable resource that they have is one of the most important things. And so when they come to me, and they're overwhelmed, that is telling me that they're in this cycle of mistaking not only busyness for productiveness, but then also there's a lot of other things often having to do with that have was the same for me of that fear of letting other people down and disappointing others, and when your business has your name on it. That's like the worst thing that can happen is when you have a client that you feel like you've let down? Well, it's really upsetting to think that that might happen.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Absolutely. I mean, I think for some of us that I'm actually trying to think, oh, maybe that's not the worst thing that could happen for some people. Right. But for you, it certainly was, how do you help them through it? How do you work through it?
Scott Robson
You know, I think a lot of it has to do with being clear about who am I serving here? Am I really serving the client? Or am I serving myself? And if I am bending over backwards, and being all the things the client needs me to be and not having proper boundaries on my on who I'm working with? That means that it's really about me. Yeah, not about them. Yeah, I look back on myself in those early days, and I have so much compassion for younger me, you know, I really see that he's just really not wanting to disappoint anyone or let them down. And now I realize that I'm not letting anybody down when I'm being really discerning about how I spend my time in my business. And also, it's I think it's a prerequisite to having a successful business. Frankly, I don't think you get to have a successful business and not figure this component out for yourself of how are you misusing your time? Go? Yeah, how can you use it better? By like being productive doesn't necessarily mean always being productive in your business? No, because there also has to be time for you and your business and self care and mental health days.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
As I say taking a nap is a business decision. This is a good choice here. I totally agree. I mean, I think we all have this different idea of what productivity is. And I find you know when I'm working with my clients that come with like going, I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do this. And they think that having a business has been super busy. And yeah, there's lots of full days. And also, it becomes full, full in the in the best sense of the word. When you say, I'm only going to do this, this, and maybe this. That's it. Not all the things, just these things. So what has been hardest for you? I think you and I are both excited about talking about the real truth of being a business owner, with our guests with each other and our own experiences, like, what has been the hardest for you? And what do you how do you help yourself when you're really having a rough moment?
Scott Robson
I have the perfect answer for this. The hardest thing for me in my business, is pricing my services. And the way that I help with that is by checking in with you. I'm not even kidding, I'm like, Is this too low? And every single time you're like, holy shit, why are you charging nothing, because I really like to do it. Straight off, I being completely upfront about that you are my gut check when it comes to that. Because honestly, there's some part of me that would do this for free. And I know that that's not the part of me, that is a business person, that's the part of me that is the doing of it. And I have a fiduciary responsibility to my business as an entrepreneur. And so working with you, frankly, has really helped me step into what it looks like to charge properly for my time, which is really, really helped me a lot. I don't know if you know that,
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
that is so good to hear. It's hard. One of the first things when I got into working with artists working with business owners was the pricing side of things. And with history as a fundraiser, I had kind of come up against dealing with a lot of money stuff, because I was asking for 10,000 100,000 A million dollars. A little bit more than that, you know, like numbers have absolutely make my stomach like not internally, right. So I get it. But one of the thing that I noticed was that there was all this struggle around money in business, and you were speaking about it, you know, we were trained to be really great coaches, but we're not necessarily trained to be business owners. And I think that that's the case for all of us, you know, whether you choose to be a coach, whether you choose to go to business school, you know, a lot of us are not taught how to confront some of the like logistical components of money as well as the emotional side of dealing with money.
Scott Robson
Who doesn't have money blocks, right? Everybody has money stories that they bring into their businesses. You know, one of the things that is, for me, a central tenant of my coaching, is that you bring all of yourself into your experience of being a business owner. So the things that happened to you, when you were five, when you were eight, when you were 12. Yep, they're also running your business alongside of you.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Or will seven year old Kate and Scott
Scott Robson
exactly like the lemonade stand or like, I remember that I had a fake library that I would open in my front porch. And I would, quote unquote, sell my like Dr. Seuss books, but like to my brothers and sisters, and then I would take them all back, of course. But it's, again, it's this idea that that you bring all of these parts of you with you in your in your business. And I think that the whole concept of having a persona in your business, I think that that is a protective mechanism for not feeling like all of your parts can actually sustain you, and that you really trust yourself to bring all of yourself into your business.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Well, and you and I have talked about how being a business owner and having your own business can be such a huge part of your healing journey. So we're not only talking about the Scott who's like selling, selling with quotes, library books, but also the little versions of us that didn't have the easiest experience being visible, for instance, right. And when you're talking about marketing that's all about being out there. And so have you any part of you is protecting that side that that little version of you that saying it's not safe to be out there visible and sharing what you're really good at? That's going to show up in your business? Yeah. And that shows up in marketing. It shows up in money. It shows up in How you overwork or under work where your clients, it shows up in how you procrastinate or manage your time and so on and so forth. So, you know, I have experienced one of the best and most terrible part about being a business owner is that it really does require and engage so much of my own personal healing as well.
Scott Robson
Yeah, I think if you're businessing, right, you're frankly healing yourself at the same time. Because all those parts of you that doesn't want to price correctly. Hi. Table for one over here.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Let everybody come in,
Scott Robson
everyone's in the sea for everyone. Yeah, praise yourself. Or maybe for example, you are over giving or your your time isn't your own? Or maybe the way that you handle conflict in your business? Yeah, it's really representative of how conflict was in your home growing up. It's all going to show up.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah, I you know, I mean, I think that it's kind of the secondary component, I really don't claim a therapeutic space here. But I do think that it works hand in hand with how we take care of ourselves. And, you know, I think if you allow it, allow your whole self to be who shows up to your business day in and day out, including the part that feels insecure, including the part that feels super confident, you know, the one that was like, hey, I can do this. I don't mean easy. And all of the other parts in between. If you allow that to show up, then your business can be a big part of your healing journey. And that's definitely been the case for me.
Scott Robson
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm so excited that we're doing this, Kate, and people have a lot to look forward to in our forthcoming episodes.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah, you know, I really feel like we're trying to bring a lot of different lenses to this, because it can be such a universal experience within each one of our individual journeys, right. So I'm super excited about bringing people in who are seasoned been doing this for 20 years making it happen, you know, have covered lots of ground in their entrepreneurial journey. And I'm interested in talking with people who are at your 10, year 15, year 20 and beyond. But I'm also really excited about talking with people in year one, two, and three.
Scott Robson
Absolutely. And I'm also really excited about having people not only from the national or even the online space, which is really international. But I'm also really excited about having people who are vocal telling their story as being a local business owner.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yes, the local, the national, the International, the online, the mom and pop retail brick and mortar nonprofit artists, you know, all the different models that are here. Even if you're in a totally different industry, even if you're in year 10 versus year one, you are still struggling with a lot of the same things. And so I just am really excited to see each episode stacked up next to each other so that we can show that same thing to all of our listeners as well that they are right alongside established business owner in year 10.
Scott Robson
Then I think that that is something that feels just so validating.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
It really does. Yeah, yeah. So we just have a stellar lineup of people. And most importantly, what you started off by saying honest, behind the scenes, real conversations, we want to know what's actually going on. So we're going to ask you what, what's going on. And I think that's just going to be incredibly fun to hear.
Scott Robson
It's gonna be great. And we've already had so much fun recording the episodes that we have, and I'm so happy that we're doing this together. More to come
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
so much good stuff, and thanks for doing this listening scan. Thank you. Okay, this
Scott Robson
is I'm already having the best time I just get to hang out with you all the time talking to really interesting people.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yep, it's the best. It really is so good.